How to Stop Sabotaging Your Love Life; Logan Ury on Dating Myths, Green Flags & Why You’re Still Single

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Do you think that a man should pay on the
first date. No. Today we have Logan uri On.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
She is the director of Relationship Science that Hinge, a
behavioral scientist, a dating coach, and she is the author
of How to Not Die Alone.

Speaker 3 (00:12):
It is something that I personally find so frustrating because
that is an excuse to not connect. Oh, it's a
deal breaker that he wore socks with sandals. No, he
wanted to wear sandals and his feet are nice and
cozy in his socks.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
I have some profiles actually that were sent in.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
So my first piece of feedback would be in our
research at HINE, we found in general that self is
just don't perform as well.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Interesting, What are some of the mistakes that you see
people make on dating profiles that really hinder their success.
I'm Radi Wukia and on my podcast A Really Good Cry,
we embrace the messy and the beautiful, providing a space
for raw, unfiltered conversations that celebrate vulnerability and allow you
to tune in to learn, connect and find comfort together.

(00:55):
Hi everyone, welcome back to this week's episode of A
Really Good Cry. Today we have Logan urine On. She
is the director of relationship science. That Hinge a behavioral scientist,
a dating coach, and she is the author of How
to Not Die Alone, a book that helps people understand
their dating blind spots and find lasting love using research
back strategies.

Speaker 1 (01:14):
I've read this book top to.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Bottom, and even though I'm already in a relationship and married,
I found so much benefit from reading it. I thought
it was such a brilliant book. So thank you so
much for coming to you. I wanted to start off
by asking you what got you into where you are today,
because it is such a fascinating role that you have,
and I would love to hear more about how you
got into it.

Speaker 3 (01:34):
Yes, so I think like many other people, when I
was growing up, I was interested in the drama and
the gossip of dating and relationships. But I feel so
lucky that I've been able to turn that into a job,
and so it's taken different forms over the last ten years.
So I've worked one on one as a dating coach,
and I still do that. I teach a class on dating.
I have my role at Hinge where I get to

(01:55):
do research on dating. I wrote my book. I was
just the coach on a Netflix show called The Life
daters working with older daters, and so I really feel
like I've gotten the chance to take the two fields
that I'm interested in, so the field of behavioral science,
the study of how we make decisions, and combine it
with the field of relationship science how love works, and
then give people research backed advice that really helps them

(02:18):
navigate their journey to finding love.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, and you know, having worked at HINGE for a while,
what's one of the most unexpected things that you kind
of learned about relationships and dating at the moment.

Speaker 3 (02:29):
Yeah, So, you know, it was just my five year
anniversary of working there, and I started working there right
when the pandemic started, and so it was really interesting
at that time just to see what happened with Hinge
and so really it was one of the only safe
ways that people could meet. So just being able to
observe dating behavior during the pandemic was fascinating. Then seeing
the rise of sober dating, that is something that I'm

(02:52):
really interested in. So many more people don't feel like
they need to get a drink or two on a
first did and gen Z's really leading the charge there.

Speaker 1 (02:59):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
And in behavioral science, when you see people one on
one has there been a trend in what people are
finding the most difficult about dating at the moment.

Speaker 3 (03:07):
Yeah. So what I found is that a lot of
people suffer from unrealistic expectations. And I have a framework
called the three dating tendencies. This is from working with
hundreds of people and they're from all different walks of
life and different ages and different countries, but so many
of them have the same thing in common, which is
these unrealistic expectations. So I can go through each one please.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
Yeah. My next question was you say the three dating
time Great, can you tell.

Speaker 3 (03:32):
Me about that? I'm jumping into your question. So yeah.
So the first one is the romanticizer, and yes, I
want to know which one you are, by the way,
so let me know at the end. The romanticizer is
someone who really has these unrealistic expectations of relationships, so
they think this is going to be my soulmate when
I meet them all. No, immediately, it's going to be
love at first sight. And while that's very romantic and

(03:55):
can be exciting at the beginning, these relationships end up
ending because the person and says, oh, well, we're fighting now,
or we have these issues, it must not be my soulmate,
and so instead of understanding that relationships do require work
and the best relationships are people who really work on
them together, they sort of say, well, this must not

(04:15):
be my soulmate. And then the second type, the maximizer.
They have unrealistic expectations of their partner. So this is
the person who's constantly searching for the perfect person and
always wants to find someone better and comes to my
office and says, the looks of this girl, with the
ambition of this girl, with the height of this girl,
you know, just go find them for me. They're so

(04:37):
focused on if I find the perfect person, then I'll
have the perfect relationship, instead of understanding really that they
can choose someone great and then build that relationship together
they don't need to keep searching for perfection. And then
the third one is the hesitator, and they have unrealistic
expectations of themselves. And so the hesitator is someone who's

(04:58):
likely not even dating because they think just not ready
to date yet, I'm not lovable. If I go out
on a date and I meet someone, well, I'm not
the person I want to be yet, so I'm going
to blow my shot. So they'll say I want to
lose weight, I want a more impressive job, I want
to clean up my apartment, And there's constantly this goalposts
that they're moving and for them, really the next activity

(05:19):
is just to actually get out there and date and
to set a deadline, set small goals that they can
achieve and really start dating.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
That's so interesting because when you were going through them
and when I was reading the book, I felt like,
at different times in my life, I've been different different ones.
I've been the romanticizer before, I've been the maximizer before,
and I've been the last one too. But I'd say,
you know, now I can't really relate to any of
them because I'm with Jay. But I definitely have been

(05:47):
one of those types. I think when I was really insecure,
I was definitely the last one when I you know,
when I started dating, I was probably the second one
where I was like, but is this it?

Speaker 1 (05:57):
Is this? Not it? Am I supposed to find?

Speaker 2 (05:59):
You know, these different qualities that I think I should
be having in my life. And I've definitely been the
first one where I've just thought, oh my gosh. When
you're young and you see all these movies and you're like, oh,
this is what love is supposed to be like? Or
when you grow up with a dad who's also a
great father figure and a husband, you're like, oh, my
partner should be.

Speaker 1 (06:16):
Exactly like that. And I think I was that person.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
I would see my dad do all these things and
I was like, oh, you, my husband should be able
to do all the handyman work in the house.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
That's just what it should be like.

Speaker 3 (06:27):
That's so interesting.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
And Jay was not someone who did handyman work, and
I do that now. But the ideas that you that
you kind of collect through movies, through the people that
you interact with, through the role models that you have
in your life, they kind of shape who you kind
of believe that you should be with before you even
meet the person.

Speaker 3 (06:45):
Oh yeah, I mean that's something that I'm actively researching
right now, kind of exactly what you've said. I think
that there has been an interesting shift where for many years,
there was kind of one expectation of what a guy
should be like. And it sounds like your dad was
maybe this archetypal kind of mass skill in handyman like
big father figure type, and then you know, men were

(07:06):
kind of their role was to be the provider or
to make money for hundreds of years, and then now
that women are making more money and getting more educated
and more women are graduating from college, the men, then
that role really shifts. And you have men who are
sort of saying, well, if I'm not the provider, what's
my role? And women saying well, if he's not the provider,
what is he bringing? And I think the answer is

(07:28):
that people are are relying on each other for emotional
stability and connection and vulnerability. But it does really require
kind of like an update to the system. And I
feel like I want to hear you talk about that
because I feel like it sounds like you had like
a very kind of stereotypical dad and then a husband
is probably like one of the most emotionally intelligent people
out there.

Speaker 2 (07:48):
Yeah, it was so interesting, Like my dad was definitely
the provider, made sure that he was. He was also everything,
Like if we had anything important at school, he was there.
If my mom needed him to chuck things in the
kid he chucked things in the kitchen. So he was
always there physically. But I think you know something that
generation of men, I'm just you know, generalizing, but kind

(08:09):
of struggled with was the emotional part of it, and
especially from my culture, like Indian, men are traditionally not
people who are used to expressing their emotions, and so
it was interesting because I'd see him show up and
his mode of love was acts of service. But when
it came to like Valentine's Day, or when it came to,
you know, maybe writing a card, he really struggled with that.

(08:31):
And I would kind of go with him to buy
the flowers for my mom and be like, give these
to mom, you know, And so you know, he's gotten
his I think as he's grown older, he's become so
much more open with his emotions. And he has three
women in the house, so he kind of has to be.
But when I then went on to see men in
dating situations, I was looking for that masculine energy. But
what had shifted was I think now men are open

(08:56):
to being more emotional, and so I wasn't used to
thinking that a man can be masculine and shop as
the masculine energy and be emotional. So at first I
think I was going towards men who were very masculine,
but they didn't have the softness that my dad had,
but they were able to do the handyman work. They
were like, you know, they were strong and they had

(09:17):
all those abilities, but they weren't really filling the emotional
need that I needed. And so then when I met Jay,
I was like, wait, I didn't realize that they could
be this beautiful balance of a man having the emotional
intelligence that you imagine feminine energy brings, but also tuning
into the masculin energy of feeling protected, not in a
masculine way that you expect where he'll just like beat

(09:38):
someone up, but in the sense of I feel safe
and protected in his presence.

Speaker 1 (09:43):
And I think, now men are.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
You're really being able to see that because they're happy
to tune into their emotional part of themselves, but they
also understand their role in being the protector and the
safety of something.

Speaker 3 (09:55):
Like what was that like for you? Like in the beginning,
where you like, this feels different. I'm supper to be
the emotional one, the emotionally intelligent one.

Speaker 2 (10:03):
Yes, And it made me realize how emotionally intelligent I
wasn't because he and it was all to do with
the work.

Speaker 1 (10:09):
It wasn't whether he was male or female.

Speaker 2 (10:11):
It was because he had actually put in time and
effort to work through the traumas that he'd been through
as a child, the things that he did or didn't
want to be when it came to his mum or
his dad, the things that he wanted to take on
into his relationship or didn't.

Speaker 1 (10:23):
And actually, I'd.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
Say I was way less emotionally intelligent and less I
was immature in my emotions because I had that stereotypical view.
I wasn't allowing it to be what it was. I
was constantly putting these expectations onto the relationship of what
it should be. And then when I started observing him
and how he was towards me, it started teaching me
about what it actually means to be in a relationship

(10:47):
where the emotions flow both ways. And so it was
really weird for me at the beginning. For sure, I
really had to settle into it. But it's almost like
you can't. You can't not feel loved, and when you
feel loved and cared for in the most authentic way,
which is how I feel he is with me, you
can't not settle into it. Like you can either run
from it, which I definitely kept doing. I was like, no,

(11:09):
this was too much, like don't be so emotional, and
I used to say that to him. I was like,
oh God, I'm not you see you being this emotional.

Speaker 1 (11:15):
But then I realize it's such a beautiful part of
it because he feels safe enough to do that with me,
and I just see that as like such a compliment
in our relationship, rather than seeing it as something that's weak.
I actually think men who are emotional have the most
amount of strength because they able to embrace their emotions.

Speaker 3 (11:29):
There's a famous quote. It's like in a Brene Brown
ted talk from a number of years ago, where she's
giving this speech about vulnerability and how everyone you know
she'd embrace vulnerability and vulnerability is strength. And then a guy
comes up to her afterwards and it's like, my wife
and daughters don't want me to be vulnerable. And it's
like maybe they would say that they want me to
be vulnerable, but like when I actually express any sort

(11:50):
of vulnerability, it scares them because they need me to
be the strong one. And I think that's such an
interesting part of it, because it's like we're speaking in generalize,
but it's like, are women saying, yes, I want this
emotionally vulnerable man. But then when he is like showing
the softer, more feminine sides. Are they like, oh wait,
I'm You're not the pillar of strength that I need

(12:11):
you to be. Yeah, so how can we give more
space to that?

Speaker 1 (12:13):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (12:14):
And I think it is changing our view of what
masculinity means, because a lot of what we see as
being masculine is actually toxic masculinity.

Speaker 3 (12:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:20):
Like, just because someone's going to be able to beat
up someone on the street for you because they look
at you, doesn't mean that that's a mask, that's a
positive masculine trade. Yeah, And so I think it's shifting,
and I do see it shifting, though. I see a
lot more women wanting emotional maturity over a man being
able to open the door for them or like buy
them stuff.

Speaker 3 (12:38):
Or is that what we're seeing with friends?

Speaker 1 (12:40):
I actually am.

Speaker 2 (12:41):
I think when I was younger, it was definitely the
narrative that I said, like this strong guy with muscles
and whatever. And now as I see my friends who
have gotten older shifting through relationships and now seeking a partnership,
they've completely shifted in the mindset and they're like, I've
been I've been through all the men who don't have
emotion but they've got muscles, and they can do all

(13:02):
those things that doesn't actually feed me in the way
I need it to.

Speaker 1 (13:06):
So now they're shifting their perspective and what they want.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
Yeah, that's why I think this conversation is so interesting
because I feel like oftentimes like we're taught to look
for a certain thing, but then that's not actually what
ends up being fulfilling to us. And I do think
like even in the last fifty years, this had shifted
so much because like basically only fifty years ago could
women get a credit card in their own name. Like
there's just all these ways in the United States, there's

(13:30):
all these ways in which men just controlled like the
whole economic system, and so like over fifty years, through
feminism and more women going to college and all of that,
like women aren't catching up in many ways financially. So
then you're just like, well, this equation of like you
take care of you know, the emotions and all be
the provider. Like that switching is just going to change

(13:51):
things up, and I think people are still catching up.
I think like we still have these old scripts. So
even though some of like the economics have changed, everything
else has changed. So, for example, you're talking about chivalry
it's like, well, when a woman's like, oh, it's a
red flag if he wants to split on the first date,
I'm like, but you make more money than him. Yeah,

(14:11):
But they're like no, no, no, it's chivalry. But I'm like,
is it.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
I've heard that a lot.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
Actually, what do you says that are like, oh, but
he you know, he didn't even offer to pay for
the full bill. And because your first date. Imagine how
many first date these guys are going on. And I agree,
even if someone does have the finances, I think I
would we shouldn't just expect that. In my opinion, I
don't think that the guy should have to pay every
single day. I think it's a bit it's unfair because

(14:36):
you also want the expectation of if I think sometimes
you want it both ways. We want to be able
to make money, be the provider as well, be a
girl boss, but then at the same time you want
the guy to show up financially for you too, and
so it kind of sends mixed messages. In my opinion,
I think sometimes we're like, yeah, I want to be
a girl boss and I want to be like doing

(14:57):
all these things, but then I also want the guy
to pay for me, and it want the guy to
be financially stable, and I want him to show me
all these qualities. And I think men get a bit
confused because sometimes I know my guy friends have sometimes said, oh,
if I end up offering to pay, I don't want
them to think that I think I'm old school and
that I I'm not. So the split feels like equality
in a sense, right, and so I think there's a

(15:18):
I think there is definitely still a confusion in that area.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
Yeah. No, everything you said is what I've seen in
the research. And it's so interesting because first of all,
I do understand certain things like women might spend more
money like getting ready for a date, or maybe they
do make less money. But I think there are situations where,
you know, roughly based on people's jobs, they'll know like
the woman makes more. But it still feels like, oh,
it's a green flag if he pays or offers to pay.

(15:44):
And yeah, I think that we just as a culture
need to have conversations around that, which is like, there's
so many other ways for a person to express green flags,
like what about like asking you great questions, picking a
date spot that's convenient, really listening to you, following up
and saying, hey, how is that big meeting? Like, I
just feel like there's so many ways to be supported then,

(16:04):
just like who pays for the drinks? And I understand
maybe you say, oh, I don't like to split it.
One person pays for the first date, one person pays
for the second, or I got this round, you got
that round. Like I understand, we still want it to
be romantic and not transactional, but I just feel like
there's certain ways in which we need to catch up
to this moment.

Speaker 2 (16:22):
Yes, and not base it purely on that way. So
I need to ask you, do you think that a
man should pay on the first date?

Speaker 3 (16:30):
No, I don't think that there's a rule around it,
like you know it has. I'm married, it has been
a while since I've been on a first date. But
I think that if someone offers, I would definitely offer
to split it exactly, and that if they said no,
you know, I would say, Okay, I've got the next one.
I do think they'll like, I'll pay for one round
of drinks, you pay for the other. Can be nice,
like if you can coordinate it. I think the most

(16:51):
important thing is that, like you know, I have been
talking to some men about it, and they're like, I
like paying for the first day. If that's how they feel,
I'm not going to like fight the mem for the bill.
It's not like so important to me that I would
need to make that statement. It's more that, like, as
a society, I would like to move away from the
idea that like what this person can offer you as
money and if they can offer it, then why are

(17:13):
you there and instead be like, hey, like you're the
girl boss. You make a lot of money. That is
so cool. You are so empowered, Like you have this
career that you fought for and you're earning money. Maybe
you don't need to have someone else be the provider.
That's what you bring to the table in addition to
other things. So what else are you looking for in
a partner? And it's like by lowering the importance of

(17:34):
the other person being a provider, you will also raise
your expectations for things like emotional vulnerability, splitting household chores,
things like that.

Speaker 1 (17:43):
And have you seen through the research you've done that
women are looking less for finances in men or not.

Speaker 3 (17:51):
I'm seeing both. I'm still seeing that paying for a
first few dates is a grain flag right, so that
it's like for straight women, they do want men to
pay for a first date. But then kind of the
cultural conversation that I'm seeing is this overall idea that
as things have shifted and women have had these great
achievements in education and earnings, then the expectations of a

(18:13):
male partner go up, because if I need more from
you than just being the provider and the protector, then
I do expect you to ask me how my day was.
I do expect you to know the name of my
best friend at work. And so I think that we're
in this cultural moment where we need more space for
women to allow men to be vulnerable, kind of like
what we were talking about, where sometimes it can scare

(18:35):
you because you're like, well, if you fall apart, can
I also fall apart? Who's going to keep the ceiling up?
But then also for men to understand that they do
need to provide more than maybe they did in the
past or something different.

Speaker 2 (18:49):
Is there a benefit of having a partner on the
same financial bracket as you, Like, how have you seen
those dynamics. I'm really interested in that because some of
my friends who all Gilboss is like, I just need
someone who unders stands my world.

Speaker 1 (19:01):
Yeah, and other people are like, you know what.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
Find it so much As long as he's able to
support me in the home and do all of those things,
it doesn't bother me as much. But most of the
time I do see women wanting men who are at
the same drive level and financial brackets them.

Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (19:18):
Have you heard of the term hypergamy? No, So this
is a concept that people often want someone who's the
same or higher level success in them. And so it's
kind of like you only date horizontally or diagonally, right,
you only date like same as you or better than you.
And so traditionally women have sought out kind of these

(19:38):
hypergamist partners where it's like, okay, well we both have
undergrad degrees, but oh no, actually he has a graduate
degree and that kind of thing. So women want to
date someone who is the same or higher level of
education and income, but men care less about that. And
so what's happening is as more and more women graduate
from college, and in fact, there's some estimations that in

(20:00):
few years it'll be two women graduating for every one man.
Then there just literally won't be enough men who have
the same or higher level of education, and so what
do you do in that situation? And I think saying
to women lower your expectations like that never goes well.
No one really wants to be told lower your expectations
or settle. I feel like in my coaching world, like

(20:21):
settling is a bad word. But I think that's why
I much thinking about things like what really matters to
you and double down on those things and being willing
to compromise on the areas that are less important. And
I think we just I don't have the answers. I
just feel like I'm identifying that there is a cultural
shift here and I'm really interested to see, like with

(20:43):
gen Z and soon Jen Alpha, like how they will
navigate this moment.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
You talk about digital body language.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah, I'd love to go into that bit more because
you know, I always wonder I never had to do
online dating. I've got in a relationship before that kind
of picked up, But I always wonder whether the dynamic
of feeling someone's energy in person. Yeah, completely changes when
you're trying to date someone online. So explain digital body
language to me and how we can navigate that.

Speaker 3 (21:11):
Sure. So in some research that we did with gen Z,
daters from around the world. We found that there was
this really a lot of importance placed on digital body language,
which is these the subtext of digital communication. So it
might be emoji, punctuation, how long your message is, how
long you wait to respond, and so it's like not
just what you say, but how you say it. And

(21:33):
we were hearing from so many daters that someone's digital
body language or DBL is a major sign for them
as to whether someone's interested.

Speaker 1 (21:41):
Right.

Speaker 3 (21:41):
So, for example, if somebody sends back one word responses
or doesn't ask any questions, or doesn't seem to want
to meet up, you're going to read between the lines
that that person's not interested in you. And so it's
really important for daters to have good digital body language
because they may be inadvertently giving across the message that
they're not interested when they are How far.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
Should someone go from messaging to speaking on the phone
to actually meeting up in person when they're dating on
an app.

Speaker 3 (22:11):
So what we found is that three days of chatting
is actually the sweet spot in terms of messaging to
setting up a date. And I really think of a
date as it could be a FaceTime, it could be
a phone call, or it could be meeting up in
person kind of to what you were talking about. In
terms of gauging someone's energy, I agree that you really
do need to hear their voice and maybe be around

(22:33):
them to do that. So I don't think that the
dating app is where romance and courtship should happen. I
think it's like the modern matchmaker that's like, hey, you
too seem to have some things in common. Go chat,
and then those two people are like, let's get out
of here and meet up in person, and then on
that date you'll see do you like the way they
move their hands when they talk, do you like the
sound of their voice? Do you have chemistry? And so

(22:56):
I think it's less about becoming pen pals and chatting
for we and then deciding to meet up and like really,
probably before you're even ready getting onto that date and
seeing is this the kind of person I want to
see again?

Speaker 2 (23:08):
Messages can be so misconstrued, and they think that is
actually where things go wrong the most from what I've seen,
is like what do you think he means by this?

Speaker 1 (23:16):
And why do you think he didn't message me?

Speaker 2 (23:17):
Or and theweening in between the lines is what drives
most people crazy totally because you don't know them well
enough they send. For me, doing emojis is very normal.
For someone else that might not be so they may
never have used the emoji in their whole entire life,
and so for them saying yes full stop is like
a really pleasant way of speaking for me to be
like yes xxx heart whatever, And so for me messaging

(23:41):
like that, they might be like, whoa this girl is
eager For him messaging saying just yes full stop, it's like, oh, okay,
I've said yes, I can't wait to see this person,
and so I think yes, reducing the amount of time
that you're actually texting for before you actually know the
way that they speak, the way that they actually communicate
via message.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
It's so important.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
I even think about it with my team whenever we're communicating.
I've had to really make it clear that because I
have to be on my phone all the time, I
won't always be like do pleasantries before and after messages.
And I've had a few people on my team I've
been like, oh, I just need to know, like sometimes
when you don't reply, are you upset with something I've done?

Speaker 1 (24:19):
Are you this?

Speaker 2 (24:19):
And I'm like, oh my gosh, no, and I've had
to explain it. And so once I've explained that to
my team, they're like, oh, okay, now they understand that
if I miss a message, if I'm writing one word answers,
it's just me trying to make sure that we get
things done, not that I'm upset, angry, or mad. And
I think that's the same with the communication of dating
online is literally the same thing. You just can't assess

(24:41):
someone based on the language that they use when they're messaging,
especially at the beginning.

Speaker 3 (24:44):
Yeah, I mean, I feel like that happens in so
many types of digital communication. Like I was on a
podcast a few months ago and the guy was great,
and after re recorded, I was like, you know, I
kind of thought you were a jerk based on your emails.
He's like, what do you mean. I was like, me,
show you the emails that you sent, and I was like,
this was the subtext of them, and he's like, wow,

(25:05):
like I really see what you mean. I'm so embarrassed.
I was like, I'm not trying to embarrass you, but
just like you may not realize how you're coming across
over this digital communication. It's like we weren't dating, we
were setting up a professional relationship. But I think it's
so true. It's like we're not all operating from the
same rule book. And so in this research, there was
a woman from Sri Lanka who was saying, oh, emojis

(25:26):
are so cringe, like's not like when a girl sends
me an emoji. And then you know, you have a
guy from Florida being like, emojis are the best way
to flirt, and then you're like, okay, not that those
two people are dating each other. But if everyone has
a different definition, it can be really hard. And that's
why I do think that people should invest in digital
body language, things like matching the person's energy, like if

(25:47):
they write back right away, don't play a game and
try to be cool and wait hours to respond, just
have the conversation. But at the same time, it's like, well,
the answer is actually just to be in person sooner
so that you don't have to have all these games
in your about what does that text mean, because you're
just having a conversation irl.

Speaker 2 (26:03):
And I imagine when you're dating, like, oh, how many
people do you actually think someone should be speaking to
at once? Because I feel like my friends get so
bored of the same conversations over and over again, and
they kind of get exhausted and they don't even want
to open their up because they're like, oh, this is
just another same conversation over and over again. So how
many people do you recommend as a sweet spot for

(26:24):
someone to be talking to at once?

Speaker 3 (26:25):
Yeah, So two answers for that. So one is if
you do feel like you're having the same conversations over
and over again, changing up your profile can be a
good way to change that. So for example, I had
a dating coaching client who did trapeze. So she had
this really cool picture of her and a Lee tard
doing trapeze. Then every single conversation with a guy would
be where do you do trapeze? Blah blah blah. So
I was like, even though that picture is awesome, I
think you should switch it out for something so that

(26:47):
you have a different conversation. So refreshing your profile and
unhinge refreshing your prompt responses can just lead to different conversations.
So that's one little hack in terms of how many
people at the same time. I find it does depend
on the some but I'll give you some rough rules
of them. So some people feel like they can really
only focus on one or two people at the same time,

(27:07):
and for them, that is the best strategy. For other people,
especially people who are more anxiously attached, it can be
helpful to be talking to a few people so that
you sort of don't have all your eggs in one basket,
and it kind of can help you keep calm. That's
probably more the kind of data I was but at Hinge,
we found that one of the biggest issues with dating
burnout was not hearing back from your matches. So forty

(27:30):
percent of our users said that the biggest issue causing
burnout for them was non responsiveness. So Hinge launched this
feature last year called your Turn Limits, and it's one
of the coolest things I've seen since I've been at Hinge.
And basically how it works is when you have eight
conversations where you owe the person a response, it's your
turn to respond. You can't match with more people nice

(27:52):
until you respond or close out those conversations. And I
love it because, kind of going back to behavioral science,
it's kind of like using this nudge. It's saying we
want to create the behavior of people responding to each other,
because that's how you go on dates, and that's how
you feel more valued and more connected. Okay, well, we
think that people are going to have better experiences and
focus on quality over quantity if they're talking to fewer people,

(28:15):
we're going to literally force you to either respond to
people or close out the conversations before you get more matches.
And we have seen the results of quality over quantity.

Speaker 1 (28:24):
That's actually so great that you do that. It's so amazing.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
You must get to accumulate so much data and wisdom
that allows you to actually make it a better environment.
You want success, you want people to actually win in
love and dating. So I feel like sometimes people think
dating apps are just so one after another, you're on
a hamster wheel and you're just reeling them out. But
I think having those limits are really important because in

(28:48):
day to day life, you don't have unlimited access to people,
for sure.

Speaker 3 (28:51):
And I think in those for people, you know, I
have plenty of clients who are burned out. I just
like to talk to them about the success stories. And
so in my newsletter, like every month or so, will
have a story where it's like this person was dating
this way, it was not working for many years. Then
they made this shift and it's often working with a coach,
working with a therapist, having a new attitude. They started
dating differently and they got this different result, And so

(29:13):
I think people sometimes need reminders that it's not just
like the dating disasters you hear on TikTok, it's actually
people who are saying, like, I'm going to choose a
different path and I'm going to get a different outcome.

Speaker 2 (29:24):
And hearing success stories just so I feel like you
get more negative than positive when it comes to it. Right,
as like you're surrounding yourself with stories that are hopeful.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
Right to feel hopeful on that.

Speaker 3 (29:33):
I feel like it used to be like Instagram was
like share your highlights like you see like in the
highlight reel, and every relationship seems perfect, And now I
feel like we've shifted towards On TikTok, it's like listen
to my bad date, and it's like if you're single
or new newly single, and that's what you're taking in.
Of course you're going to feel negative about dating. Of
Course you're going to have a mindset of it's not

(29:54):
going to work out. It never works out. So I
think people should be really conscious of the friends they
are surrounding them so with and the media that they're consuming,
because of course that's going to impact the way you
feel about dating. And if you really want to find someone,
then surround yourself with people and content that makes you
feel like you can do it.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yes, not the X page, Yeah, one hundred.

Speaker 2 (30:15):
I don't know what you've seen this guy who or
there's lots of pages which do newick unleashed and it's
like showing all the different inks that they have on dates,
and I'm like, at this point, there's the ick for everything.

Speaker 3 (30:26):
I know that. It is something that I personally find
so frustrating because it's just like it is funny. It
is like a source of humor. Like I get it.
I do like hearing about silly X. But at the
end of the day, I'm like, that is an excuse
to not connect, and that is an excuse to judge
someone for not being perfect when you're not perfect either.
And so I really hate when we get like viral

(30:46):
content that celebrates being judgmental about things that are truly
pet peeves and they're seeing them as deal breaker. Oh,
it's a deal breaker that he wore socks with sandals.
It's like, no, he wanted to wear sandals and his
feet are nice and coat in his socks, And that's
maybe a pet peeve of yours, but it's truly not
a deal breaker. And I think those X pages are
funny but probably not helping people achieve their goals.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
You talk about it in the book.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
Actually, the idea of pet peeves versus non negotiable. Could
you kind of define the truth because I think that's
something people get.

Speaker 3 (31:18):
A real deal breaker is when you have a fundamental
incompatibility that means you can't be together. So one would
be you have different religions and you both want to
raise your kids in that religion, it's not going to work.
Or one of you as a smoker and the other
has asthma. This just isn't going to work. So that
is a true reason not to be together. Pet peeves
are things that may not be your favorite and may

(31:40):
annoy you or even annoy you more than it would
annoy other people, but it truly wouldn't get in the
way of you having a healthy relationship. As people get
older and their list, their checklist gets longer, and the
list of things that they feel like they must have
or they can't have gets longer. They move a lot
of things to this deal breaker list. And when I

(32:01):
work with clients, you know, like mid thirties and up,
I'm often saying, I understand that your list has gotten
longer because you're like, I've been dating this long, he
better be perfect by now. But this is actually the
time to move those things to a pet peeves list
and to really say, I'm gonna say these are the
things that matter, these are the values and double down
on those. And the things like the socks with sandals

(32:22):
or you know whatever mouth breathing choose with their mouth open.
It's like, sure, you wouldn't choose that, but you could
get over it. You could help them change it, and
it's not going to get in the way of having
a really great relationship.

Speaker 1 (32:32):
You can buy him different sandals, you can buy different stuff.

Speaker 3 (32:37):
Is so superficial. It's like his apartment wasn't that clean.
I'm like, you can help him understand what clean apartment
is like, like not that you should clean the apartment,
but I'm just saying it's like I feel that people
put up these walls and it's a way to not
connect and if you actually focus on your goal of

(32:57):
you know, sometimes I'll say to my client, I'll say like, Okay,
if you find someone to marry in the next year
who you're so excited about, and I was going to
give you ten million dollars for finding that person, what
would you do in the next year. And then they say, okay, well,
i'd really focus on this and I go to these
events and I do this, and I'm like, okay, well,
I'm not going to give you ten million dollars, but
go do that. I'm like, there are things that you

(33:19):
could do in turbo mode to really get out of
your way. And that's why I think when people really
focus on a timeline or a goal, not to make
them rush, but to make them understand that there are
things that they could be doing that would lead to
different outcomes.

Speaker 1 (33:31):
Yes, and you mentioned dating profiles.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
What are some of the mistakes that you see people
make on dating profiles that really hinder their success.

Speaker 3 (33:39):
Yeah. So at Hinge we've done an incredible amount of
research into what makes a great profile. So I have
some of this in my book, but actually have updated
information now based on the last five years at Hinge.
So the most important thing is just a really good headshot.
People need to see for the first photo, what you
look like. That's the whole point. So don't have a
group photo or something with glass are far away. Just

(34:01):
a clear, well lit headshot.

Speaker 1 (34:02):
But like a headshot like adess.

Speaker 3 (34:05):
Okay, I say that, but I kind of just am
looking for a word that means like, you know, somewhat
cropped of your face, clear, no sunglasses, no filters, it's
not artsy, you're not in shadows something like that, like
well lift. Then the photos that people are looking for
are one of you doing an activity that you love,
so it might be you hiking, you cooking, a full

(34:25):
body shot, and then one with friends and family. And
make sure that it's clear that none of these people
are your ex girlfriend or boyfriend. And then also you
want to have a variety of photos. You want to
show different size of yourself. So I had a woman
in my dating class who had four photos from the
same photoshoot with her and her dog, and I was like,
you're cute, your dog is cute, but I now know

(34:47):
what you look like on this day. I don't need
four pictures of it. So we cut that down and
then for prompts, it's really about expressing yourself and showing
both humor and vulnerability. So sometimes people are just all
still and sarcastic, and then that's kind of one side
of them, or they're all super earnest, like bullet points
of like, you know, must be open to adventure, journaling, meditation.

(35:11):
I'm like, that's great, but show me other sides of
yourself as well. And so it's really about painting this picture.
And then in terms of the big don't don't have
one of those photos where it's you know, you and
your girlfriends that bridesmaids at someone's wedding and you all
look the same and I can't tell which one you are.
People don't like photos with smoking or Jim selfies especially,

(35:32):
And then for no Jim selfies, No, that's a turn off.
Only three percent of successful profiles you all have Jim selfies.
And then for the prompts, it's really about not having
one word answers, not having grammatical mistakes, and just showing
us new information.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
It's so interesting whenever, like some of my friends when
they're picking their profile pictures and stuff, they'll send it
to a group chat.

Speaker 1 (35:54):
Yeah, and it's a group chat of guys and girls.

Speaker 2 (35:55):
Yeah, and it is so interesting to see well, guys
tell the belsa versus what women tell their friends to pick.
I find that the view of what is beautiful, sexy,
or attractive is completely different for both. The men are like, oh, yeah,
show a bit of skin, but not too much skin.
The girls are either like, yeah, you should show up
your buddy and like be really like confident in the

(36:17):
way that you're showing off yourself. But I find that
the pictures that men and women choose are so different.
So when you're seeking advice about profile pictures, do you
ask guys because that's who you're trying to attract, or
do you ask your girls because they'll have, you know,
the same kind of mindset as you.

Speaker 3 (36:34):
Yeah, I've found the same thing that you found in
your group chats. So in my class, we actually have
people post photos and then they get feedback from the
coaches in the class. There's like an image expert who's
like one of the coaches, and then from men and
women in the class. But you're right, it's like, oftentimes
women will be like, you look so pretty there, I
love your dress, and then a guy will be like,

(36:54):
you look caught here. Yeah, And I don't have the
perfect answer. I think it's like, you know, a deeper
thing around like the male gaze. It's like, you know,
we're talking about straight dating, but it's like, are you
trying to get the photo that most men will respond to?
Are you trying to get the photo where you feel
like you look the most like yourself? And I think
that that's something for people to decide for themselves. Like

(37:15):
there was a woman in a class who had like,
like a very busty bikini photo and one of the
women wrote as feedback, like I don't think you're going
to get the kind of attention that you want from that,
And so I think that people should just think about
what impression do I give someone with this photo. So
maybe that person's like, I'm here to have fun. I

(37:36):
want to show off this bikini picture. Like more power
to you that you were empowered to do that, But
also that is going to send a certain message. And
so I think there's like the girl hot, the guy hot,
And at the end of the day, it's like, how
do you want to be perceived at this moment in
your life and what feels authentic to you.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
I really like that actually, because I think when at
the end of the day, you want the person to
get the clearest depiction of you as you. So I
need lots of my friends who are actually like so sweet,
actually not very forward in the way that they date
or have relationships with people. But when they put up
pictures of themselves showing a bit more skin, naturally, the

(38:14):
guys that they attract are like the ones who kind
of want one night stands or something, but that's not
what they want, and so they kind of realize through
the experience of putting different pictures up what they end
up attracting through it.

Speaker 3 (38:27):
Yeah, and I definitely when I was using online dating,
you do have that experience. You know, different photos get
you more or less attention, and different types of attention.
And I think that as people change and their relationship
goals change, they can also change their profiles.

Speaker 2 (38:41):
Okay, I have some profiles actually that were sent me
by listeners. We have two profiles, and they're happy for
their names to be said, but I'm going to show
you them.

Speaker 1 (38:51):
It's a video and I was wondering if you could
analyze it.

Speaker 3 (38:55):
Can I read it out loud?

Speaker 1 (38:56):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (38:56):
Pleez? Okay, this is Hannah. The way to surprise, the
way to win me over is to surprise me. Okay,
it doesn't have children, want's children, ASA's London. Okay, I'm
really taking it in. Yeah, all right, So some nice
pictures dressed up with her friends, and there's a picture

(39:18):
of an egg with a graduation thing. I geek out
on books. I love reading. Giving half a chance, I'll
spend more time in a bookshop than Zara homark for
a good relationship, respect, authenticity, and kindness. There's a really
cool one of her climbing. She's beautiful ocean side. Okay,
so my first piece of feedback would be I feel

(39:39):
like for the prompts, it's possible to just add more like.
The way to win me over is to surprise me.
So I really like to have prompt responses that include
a hook. So a hook is something that people can
immediately respond to, and so the easiest hook is often
a question, but it could also be a hot take.
So the way to win me over is to surprise me.

(40:00):
What's the best surprise you've ever done for someone else,
or what's the best gift you've ever given? Or she
could just you know, completely change it. The way to
win me over is listen to me when I talk
about work and ask me for follow questions or something
like that. So I would say, like to surprise me.
I think that there's just not enough there for somebody
to follow up on, especially for the first prompt, which

(40:20):
is often like what people respond to. Then I think
for the photos, you know, I think they're definitely attractive.
I feel like a lot of them are more going out,
Like the first one is like a going out photo,
the second one is a going out photo. Then there's
the one of the egg wearing the graduation cap, and
it might be that that has a caption that I
can't click on. But for that one, I would say, like,

(40:41):
I'm just not learning more information about you. That's an
opportunity for you to tell me more about yourself. So
I kind of feel like that one's a bit of
a waste and I would swap it out for a
different photo of her. And then I love that she
has a photo of her doing something that she loves,
you know, traveling or climbing. I like that there's some

(41:02):
full body pictures in here, and I like that she
has friends and family. And then I like the one
about books. I love reading. Given half a chance, I
think that's a great opportunity for a hook, so she
could say extra credit if you recommend my next great book,
or what's the last good book you read? Or she
could even you know, do a funny poll like is

(41:22):
listening to a book actually reading? And so I think
there's a nice way to engage there. I had a
client who wanted to indicate on his profile that he
was looking for a long term relationship, but he didn't
want to come on too strong. Yes, and he really
loved reading, So he came up with this one about
I'm looking for somebody to combine my bookshelves with.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:43):
I loved it because it was it was indicating like
I'm here for a good time in a long time,
but I you know, but while also indicating that he
loves reading.

Speaker 1 (41:52):
Oh that's great. Actually, yeah, great advice.

Speaker 3 (41:55):
Good. Yeah. So I would say overall, like I think
it's a fun profile. I think she can add like
maybe some different types of photos for a little bit
more variety, swap out that egg photo and then use
the prompts to go a little bit deeper. And then
she could also use some of the other features. So
there's like a prompt poll where you could say, like
where should we go for our first date or ask
a question. And then there's also one where you can

(42:17):
do a voice prompt and like, you know, if you
have a lovely accent, if you're from London, like you
could do that and people really love to hear what
people's voices sound like.

Speaker 1 (42:28):
Gosh, that was great, great, Yay, let's try this next one.

Speaker 3 (42:31):
This is Alison Alison all right together, we could leave
places early insta al babs all right. Then there's a
photo of her and her friend. This one. One thing
I'd love to know about you is what did you
yap about in therapy this week? Love it me and
my best friend? So there's a kid green flags I

(42:52):
look for and not friends with an ex caption this photo.
So a few things. One is that in our research
at Hinge, we found in and all that selfies just
don't perform as well. And so Allison has the first
photos a selfie, the second photo is a selfie, the
third photo is a mirror selfie. I think, oh, and

(43:14):
the beach photos a selfie, so like four out of
six of them are selfie. So that's something that I
would change for the one that says me and my
best friend. There might be more information on here that
I can't see, but I would immediately want to know,
like is this your kid or not. That's something that
comes up a lot, like in research and in anecdotal
conversations where people are just like, there's a guy holding
a baby, like is that your nephew or your son?

(43:36):
Because I want to know. So it's possible that there's
something else on here, but that would be a question
for people.

Speaker 2 (43:41):
All baby picture is good, like you and a baby,
If it's not your baby, is that a good pick
to have?

Speaker 3 (43:46):
I think that it can just add more confusion than clarity.
But some people might say it's really cute. I'm like,
just take a picture of a friend's dog or something
that I say, it's not your dog, Okay, so then
this is together. We could leave places early. I really
like that. I feel like that's evocative for me, like
I want to go out, but I want to leave
early with you. But then giving your Instagram handle right

(44:08):
away is actually generally not perceived as well by people
on hinge, so it's kind of seen as like, oh,
are you just trying to get followers or college. I mean,
I don't know that that's necessarily what's going on here.
I mean, it might she might just be like, you
can look at more photos of me there. But that's
something that we specifically have seen is when people just
leave their Instagram handle, it's kind of like, I don't

(44:29):
know you check me out right, Or when people say
I'm overly competitive about dot dot dot everything, those become cliches.

Speaker 1 (44:38):
Right and also not it doesn't feel like you've put
in enough f at me, right.

Speaker 3 (44:41):
And so actually Hinge came out with a feature earlier
this year that's called prompt Feedback. So basically it's an
AI coach that will show you, like privately and no
one else can see it, things like go a little
bit deeper or add a bit more. Like if you
say I'm overly competitive about everything, they'll say, what are
you competitive about? Talk more about that? And so I
feel like the feedback for this one might be like,

(45:03):
instead of giving the Instagram handle, like, tell us more
about what you want to do together, and then you know,
I do feel like we get photos. I like this
last photo of her with this dog, it's a video.
Oh no, this is a video. I'm sorry. I feel
like we would like see her in action. Yeah, and
then it looks like there's only two prompts that she

(45:24):
responded to. The first, Oh, no, I really like this one.
What did you yap about in therapy this week? Like
I feel like yap is kind of trending right now.
So I love that she used that, and I think
it's just a really great way of indicating, Like I like,
if you're in therapy, tell me about how you're in therapy.
What did you talk about in therapy? I think it's
kind of vulnerable. I really like that one. Green flags
I look for and not friends with an X. That's fine,

(45:46):
but it kind of gives me this like negative energy
of like where you burned by someone who is friends
with their acts, Like don't you think that some people
can be friends with their exes? So I think that
in general, it's better to focus on what you do
want then then instead of what you don't want.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
So necessarily a green flag, because it's like, is something positive.

Speaker 3 (46:07):
Totally, it's like just taking an opportunity to talk about
something positive and say don't do this. And so I
would actually just either scrap that one altogether or change
it to a green lag that you actually do look for.

Speaker 1 (46:18):
Yes, great, Oh my gosh, thank you, thank you, Alison. Right.

Speaker 2 (46:21):
Yeah, Alison, thank you so much for sending in your
profile and I hope that that helped you. How do
people find you, know, if they don't want to be
on apps? Yeah, what's the best place for people to
start finding people outside of the apps?

Speaker 3 (46:34):
I've definitely found more and more that people are asking
me like, how do I meet someone off the apps?

Speaker 1 (46:39):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (46:39):
I feel like if you're single and really serious about
finding someone, you should just think about the apps as
like part of sort of an overall portfolio. It's like
you're on the apps because that's the way to meet
the most number of people, and it hinge. We're setting
up a date every two seconds, But there's no reason
why you can't be going to a party and striking
up a conversation with someone. Or I feel like people
under use the friends of friends thing. So there's this

(47:01):
concept called weak ties. Professor Adam Grant talks about this
a lot, where it's like you probably are going to
get your next job through a week tie someone who's
an acquaintance and a for a friend of a friend
because your friends have the same information you do. They
know the people you do, they know the jobs that
are available that you do, but the friends of friends
have an extended network, so it's often easier to meet

(47:25):
someone through that group. And you do have to be
vulnerable and put yourself out there and say, hey, I'm
looking for love. Do you know anyone like this? But
I think it's a really great way to meet someone
in context.

Speaker 1 (47:36):
I agree.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
I remember hearing this the theory of you know, if
you're staying at home and you're waiting for someone to
come and find you, that's like a zero percent chance
of meeting someone. And then the more events that you
say yes to, the probability of you're meeting people increases.
The more that you go to friend's birthdays or go
out to buy your groceries instead of ordering them in,
like go out to a restaurant instead of ordering in,

(47:58):
it just completely changes the probability of you meeting someone.
And it might not be the person, but it'll be
the person that could link you to the person. And
so it sounds like such a simple theory, but some
of my friends and I can't be bothered to go
to this or I can't be bothered to go to
this event. I've met all these people before. But it's like,
but what about if you meet that one person that
knows that person totally. So it's being like open to

(48:19):
hope and opportunity, I think is a big mindset shift
that has to happen to think of the wife.

Speaker 3 (48:25):
Yeah, I think about that stuff all the time. Like
my husband's parents met on the New York City subway
now where my husband's mom was reading a developmental psychology
book and my husband, my husband's dad approached her about it.
And it's like that just wouldn't have happened now itay
is because they would have both had air pods in,
or she would have been reading on a device, or
it would be seen as creepy to talk to a stranger.

(48:46):
And so I think we just all need to really
work on this muscle. And if it means that the
only time you talk to a stranger is when they're
super attractive and you're interested in them, that's not how
to build the muscle because you won't be good at
it and you'll be nervous. Just talking to people out
and about in general is such an underrated skill. So
it's like you're waiting in line for tsa ask someone
how long have you been waiting here? Or you go

(49:08):
to an event and you say, you know, where's the
bathroom or how do you know the host? Like, just
work on the skill of talking to people, talking to strangers,
really get into these small talk conversations, and then when
you do see someone you're attracted to and you want
to shoot your shot, you're just going to be so
much better at it because you've been practicing speaking to
people you don't know.

Speaker 1 (49:29):
Yes, wait, how did you meet your husband? So?

Speaker 3 (49:31):
I met my husband originally in college, Ok, and then
we just like met once randomly for a lunch, and
then seven years later we were both working at Google.
But even then it took another year for us to
start dating.

Speaker 1 (49:43):
Really, you were friends at best.

Speaker 3 (49:45):
We were friends and like he was going on dates
and I was chasing this other guy, and it really
took a year to be like, oh wait, he has
all the qualities I'm looking for.

Speaker 1 (49:54):
Ah, so nice.

Speaker 2 (49:56):
When you guys started dating, you know or well, you'll
recommend for questions to ask on dates, like are there
some top questions that you have that people should ask?

Speaker 3 (50:05):
Yes, yeah, it might be a little different for us
because we had been friends for a while. I think
that people often make the mistake on first dates of
treating it like a job interview, and so it's like
you're going in with this mental checklist of essentially, are
you good enough for me? Are you going to fulfill
the role of husband or wife?

Speaker 1 (50:22):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (50:23):
Are you going to get a gyues to move on
to the second date or a no? And instead you
can have a radically different view of first dates, which is,
I'm here to have an experience with you and see
what it's like to spend time with you, and I
want to have fun and even if this doesn't turn
into a relationship, I still want to have fun and
have a connection. And so I have this tool called
the post date eight and these are eight questions to

(50:45):
ask yourself after a date. And the whole point is
that if you go into the date with the evaluative
mindset are you good enough for me? You're going to
be looking for those things. If you go into the
date with the experiential mindset, how does my body feel
around you? What side of me do you bring out?
Did I feel heard in your presence? Did I laugh

(51:06):
in your presence? Did I feel active it? Did I
feel interested? Did I feel bored? Somewhere in between? You're
really paying attention to what it's like to be around
that person, and I think in general people have sort
of lost that skill. It's like you can always do
the math of like how tall someone is, how much
money they make, this and that, but it's like at
the end of the day, like do you want to

(51:27):
sit next to them on a couch on a Tuesday exactly?

Speaker 2 (51:31):
And what are some of the good places you know,
do you think a dinner date is still the best
place to go on the first day or what are
some good places to take people out?

Speaker 3 (51:39):
Yeah, I think dinner for most people would be like
too serious.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
You know.

Speaker 3 (51:43):
I think a common first date, of course, you'd be
like getting drinks. But as people are more sober, sober curious,
a lot of people are meeting up to go for
a walk, right, or they might do an activity like
they might play pickleball and then get a smoothie afterwards,
or you know, a pick that's also good with kind
of sharing the financial requirements because you know, both people

(52:05):
can bring all that stuff. So I would say, really
think about an activity that's going to be fun, that's
going to help you show off your silly side or
help you be less in your head, and then at
the end of the day, you don't say do I
want to marry them? You say do I want to
see them again?

Speaker 1 (52:18):
That's it? Yeah, do I want to see them again?

Speaker 2 (52:19):
The pressure off have it of planning the future from
like the first time you meet someone, but take it
date by date, step by step. Yeah, how can you
tell if a man is emotionally stable in the first
few dates? Are there some green flags that people should
be looking for?

Speaker 3 (52:33):
In my book, I talk about the things that matter
more and less than we think they do for long
term relationships, and I'll share what they both are. But
what's hard is that the things that are not as
important are the easier ones to measure. Oh okay, So
the things that are important but less important than people
think they are, so looks and money. Of course, you
want to be attracted to your partner. Of course money

(52:54):
makes things easier. But at the end of the day,
we adapt to our circumstances, so those things tend to
be less important over time. Then people feel like, oh,
we need to have the same personality, we need to
have the same hobbies. That actually doesn't matter. You can
be complimentary to each other and you don't have to
share hobbies as long as you support the other person's hobbies. Now,

(53:15):
the things that do matter more than we think they do.
So the first one is kindness, and I think that
you can tell that on a first date, or how
someone communicates, you know, how do they treat the waiters,
How do they treat someone who they need nothing from?
Even how do they treat you? Are they a good listener?
Do they seem interested loyalty? It does take more time

(53:36):
to see that. But do they have old friends from
different phases of their life? Are they the kind of
person who helps someone move like? Do they seem like
they hold on to people over time? The emotional stability one,
I think that that takes time as well. But you
can think about emotional regulation. So for me, when I
was an anxiously attached DAT, I struggled with emotional regulation

(53:58):
a lot. It was like I didn't hear back from you.
I'm going to send you a million texts and then
turn off my phone, Like I feel anxious, so I
want to hear from you to make me feel better.
It's like I was not the most emotionally regulated. And
so I think looking for emotional stability and looking for
someone who's able to kind of take that pause and
you know, take that moment between the activity and their response.

(54:19):
That's a great thing to look out for, but it
does take time. And then a few more. One is
the ability to make hard decisions together. Of course we're
not just talking about like where are we going to
order in from tonight, but really like if you have
to decide between your friend's wedding and another friend's wedding,
or where you're going to spend the holidays, Like are
you good at decision making? Like I feel like now

(54:42):
I've been with my husband for ten years, like as
of a month from now, and I'm just like, Wow,
We've really had to navigate a lot of hard decisions together,
and i just feel like, in the end of the day,
I'm like, he's so smart, he's wise. I respect his opinion.
I just cannot imagine being married to someone where when
they I'm like, I don't really believe that. Yeah, I mean,

(55:03):
how do you feel about that?

Speaker 2 (55:05):
Yeah? I think I definitely trust in his ability to
take me into consideration.

Speaker 1 (55:11):
When we're making decisions a good one.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
I always know there's never a time where I feel
like he's making a decision without having thought about me
in the mix. Yeah, and I think that's been a
really great feeling because I know that you're not trying
to do anything. He's always wanting to not hurt me.
He always wants to make sure I'm happy. Whether it's
moving somewhere, whether it's having people over for dinner, He's like,
do you want to cook?

Speaker 1 (55:32):
Are you sure you're okay? Are you tired?

Speaker 2 (55:34):
Like all the decisions, even micro decisions, he's really thoughtful
about the way that he makes them. And so through
having seen how he's made the big decisions like moving
to the micro decisions like having people over, Yeah, it's
been a great indication for.

Speaker 1 (55:49):
Me to now know you know what you make the decision.

Speaker 2 (55:50):
I trust that you can make it, and I know
that you're thinking of me when doing it.

Speaker 1 (55:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (55:55):
I think you're talking about a really important point, which
is like when we feel like our partner has our back,
we can really lower our defenses when we feel like
I need to fight for myself because you're fighting for yourself.
I think that those couples have more problems because it's
kind of like an adversarial relationship instead of believing that
we're a team and we have a common goal. So
it sounds like you and Jay just really you feel

(56:16):
very safe and protected by the fact that you're always
he's always considering you.

Speaker 1 (56:21):
Yes exactly? Do you always Okay? So you've had a
first date.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
I think people struggle to know whether they should go
on a second date if they're unsure about the person.
What's your opinion on second dates?

Speaker 3 (56:31):
So when I wrote my book, I said that the
second date should be the default, And that was really
influenced by this idea of defaults, that in general, we
can get people to take different behavior by just saying,
instead of deciding every time, just make a rule. And
so it's like, when you make the default that people
are organ donors versus that they're not organ donors, well

(56:51):
it really impacts the percentage of people in your population
that are organ donors. So anyway, that was my thinking.
Since the book came out, I feel like that's the
one part of the book that I have got less
passionate about because I feel like, if you truly did
not enjoy the date and you're a busy person and
you're like I felt zero percent interested in them, it's
not going to go from zero percent to connection. So

(57:13):
I don't think people need to make the second date
the default. Instead, I recommend that they ask themselves those
post date eight questions after each one. And what you're
looking for is if it's someone where you feel somewhat
interested in them but not head over heels, do it
after the first date, see them again, do it after
the second date. Are you finding yourself more interested in them?

(57:33):
Did you have an even better time? Because some of
the best people out there are these slow burned people
that you like more and more each time. I feel
like my husband, by the time that we started dating,
we'd known each other technically for eight years. It's like
he got better over time, and so you need the
post date eight to sort of see the trend. But
if you're zero percent interested in someone like I think

(57:55):
you can call it no.

Speaker 1 (57:55):
Waste of time. Okay, get to know.

Speaker 2 (57:57):
I have questions from people, some questions in lots of people.
I mean, most people are looking for a spark. They
want that chemistry, they want their butterflies in their stomach.
And in your book you say, f the spark. So
I'd love to pick your brain on that.

Speaker 3 (58:11):
Yeah, so we all know what the spark is, right,
It's that feeling of chemistry and butterflies, and it feels great,
and the spark is real. I definitely meet people and
feel the spark. So I'm not saying that it's always
a bad thing or that it doesn't exist. What I
am saying is that people have become too focused on
it as the indicator for whether or not they should
see someone again. So I hear people that go on

(58:32):
dates and say she was lovely, we actually had a
lot in common. I'm just not going to see her again.
Why we didn't have the spark. I didn't feel the spark.
And so there's three miss of the spark. The first
one is that if it's meant to be with this person,
you're going to have instant chemistry, and that's not true.
Oftentimes chemistry can build over time. Only eleven percent of

(58:54):
people say that they feel love at first sight. So
just because you didn't feel exactly when you met them
doesn't mean that by the end of the day, when
they're talking about their family and they really light up,
that you won't feel it right. The second myth is
that if you feel the spark, it's a good thing,
and we also know that that's not always true. Sometimes
people are just very sparky. They give that feeling to everyone.
I think you might be married to someone very sparky,

(59:16):
and so it doesn't mean it's a bad thing, but
it means be aware that that might be more about
who the person is than the dynamic between the two
of you. And actually, sometimes what we feel is chemistry
is actually anxiety and it's alarm bells in our brains
saying they're playing hot and cold. You don't know how
they feel about you. And then the third myth is
that if you have a spark, the relationship is viable

(59:38):
and a lot of times people meet the right way,
feeling like we had this amazing rom comp moment. Are
we mat is so romantic? And it's like, yes, but
don't stay in the wrong relationship because you met the
right way.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
Mm okay, oh my god. The myths of the spark,
I feel like that's going to be a good one
for me. But to hear, oh okay, when someone is
seeing other people, how long should you be dating someone
for while they're also seeing other people, Like when it's
time to say, okay, it's time for us to be exclusive.

Speaker 3 (01:00:08):
Yeah. So the what are we talk or the define
the relationship talk? I think it can depend on what
your goals are. So for some people, they're saying, I'm
okay with us dating other people, but if we're gonna
have sex, I want to know that we're sexually exclusive,
or I want to know that we're exclusively dating, but
I don't need label. So I think that the spurs
step is for someone to figure out on their own

(01:00:29):
what are they looking for at this stage in their life,
and then talk to their person and see if they're
on the same page. Also to share from a place
of hey, like I'm ready to delete hinge, what about you?
And the other person might say no, I'm not there yet,
and then you get to decide, well I can keep
dating them, or I can keep waiting or not. So
I think people often delay that conversation because they're afraid

(01:00:52):
about the answer they're going to get. But instead you
should try to get the data that you need.

Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
Yes, prom date versus life partner? Tell me more about
when people pick the prom date versus the life.

Speaker 3 (01:01:03):
Yeah, so I don't know if you went to a prom.

Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
I didn't go to a problem, but I but I
could I understood the type of person.

Speaker 3 (01:01:10):
Yeah, the prom dating, you're you're sixteen or seventeen years old,
you're finding somebody cute in your Spanish class. You're saying,
you know, do you want to dance the night away
with me, take some pictures, have a kiss at the
end of the night. That is just a completely different
calculation than who you want to marry. And so I
think for too long people keep dating the fun prom

(01:01:31):
date person, and then they don't get the results they
want as they get older, and maybe the person won't commit,
or they're not aligned in their values, and at a
certain point you need to make a conscious choice towards
the life partner and really think about who is the
person that I want to build a life with. Who
is the person that will pick up my kid from
the dentist when I'm away, or you know what we

(01:01:53):
talked about. I can make hard decisions with them. I
want to grow old with them. And so for people
who are getting the same results over and over, it's
really about understanding you might need to make that shift
from prom date to life partner.

Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
Yes, okay, these are questions from the audience. I was
in a relationship for twelve years. Now I'm happy single.
I don't know if I ever want to date again?
Is that normal?

Speaker 1 (01:02:16):
And okay? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:02:17):
I mean in general, I try to avoid the word normal.

Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
Yeah who am I?

Speaker 3 (01:02:20):
Who has anyone else to tell you like what's acceptable
or not? And I would just say, like, tune in
to yourself, like are you single and happy? Do you
feel like all your needs are met and you have
a great community and you're having fun and you don't
need a partner? That's fine and you can change your
mind in a year or two. Or is it that
you're afraid of getting hurt and you really do want
a partner but you're worried about the steps that will

(01:02:41):
take to get there, or you were hurt in your
twelve year relationship, So I think let's worry less about
normal and more about what is this person wants?

Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
Can you still be talking to X while you're trying
to date or find someone new?

Speaker 3 (01:02:52):
In general, I think speaking to your ex can be
really distracting. If you're someone who's you know, divorced and
you have kids together, like, obviously there's nuance there and
you have to be in touch with them. But in general,
the research shows that when you communicate with an X,
or especially when you have sex with an ex, it
can be really hard for you to move on, And
you might think, well, I'm like still chatting with them,

(01:03:13):
but I'm also moving forward. But research shows that it's
much easier to make a decision about kind of the
next stage when you're not still looking back at past options.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
It makes sense. What do you do if he doesn't
text you off to your date?

Speaker 3 (01:03:26):
This one's hard. I feel like people ask me about
texting all the time, and some of it is digital
body language. So I would say, can you text them?
Can you just say hey, thanks so much, that was
a great time, or here's a meme you know that's
relevant to what we talked about. It sounds like this
person is sort of saying I want them to reach
out first, So I might have that person explore like

(01:03:46):
can you reach out first? But then kind of going
deeper on the question, I might think about, well, do
you feel like you're putting all the effort in? And
if you stop putting an effort, then they wouldn't put
effort in, And so maybe just pay attention to is
this person matching your interest and momentum?

Speaker 1 (01:04:03):
Yes? Do opposites attract?

Speaker 3 (01:04:05):
This is funny. When I set out to write my book,
I made a list of all these things that people
say about dating that seem to contradict each other. And
I think one of the first ones I wrote was
opposites attract, Birds of a feather flock together. And I
was like, you can just come up with any of
these sayings that support anything, And I would say, sure.
Sometimes we like opposites, like I would say my husband

(01:04:27):
are my husband and I are extremely different. And in
some ways that's really fun because I admire him, like
he's super disciplined. That's not something I'm as good at.
And in other ways it's frustrating because I'm like, why
don't you want to talk about the Oscar winners for
twenty minutes? Why are you not interested in some of
the stuff I'm interested in? And so I would say,
is like, focus less on opposites attract, and focus more

(01:04:49):
on the things that really matter, like shared vision for life.
How that person makes you feel like that's what matters,
doesn't matter, like if you're extroverted or introverted.

Speaker 2 (01:04:58):
Yes, how do I I love again after getting my
heart broken by the person I thought I was going
to marry.

Speaker 3 (01:05:04):
Oh, I know. I think part of this one is
just acknowledging that it's really hard, Like rejection in any
realm hurts, but I think especially rejection in romantic relationships
where you can truly I guess not if you're polyamorous,
but like for people who are monogamous, you can only
have one, so it's like you're choosing one partner and
you're like, I choose you, and they say, I don't
choose you back, So I think just acknowledging, like how

(01:05:26):
heartbreaking it is. There are activities that you can do
to feel better after a breakup. So one is making
a list of all the things that you can do
again now that you couldn't do in your relationship, like
these rediscover activities like oh, well he didn't like jazz,
so I can go listen to jazz, or he never
wanted to visit my family back in Michigan, whatever the

(01:05:47):
thing is. You can also make a list of things
about the person that annoyed you. It sounds silly, but
these are techniques that have been proven to help people
get over it. And then I think, you know, sometimes
people say time heals all wounds, but I think we
should update that to meaning heels all wound. So put
meaning behind it, saying I really got my heart broken.
I was really serious about this person. But at the

(01:06:07):
end of the day, I wouldn't have wanted to be
in a relationship with someone who didn't want to be
in a relationship with me. Making meaning of it and
saying it wasn't meant to be, and then thinking about
what you do want and when you feel ready putting
yourself out there again.

Speaker 1 (01:06:21):
Good advice. Is there really such thing as the one?
Because I think I lost mine.

Speaker 3 (01:06:25):
Oh, I don't believe in the idea of the one.
I think we could have love stories and life stories
with many different people.

Speaker 1 (01:06:33):
Okay, good, So no, not the one you might do.
We all have many the ones.

Speaker 2 (01:06:37):
Yeah, is the seven year itch in the relationship real?

Speaker 1 (01:06:41):
And what?

Speaker 2 (01:06:41):
I never actually heard of this till I read this question,
and then I asked my team and they're like, oh, yeah,
I've heard of this.

Speaker 1 (01:06:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:06:45):
I was actually looking into something about this recently that
sort of suggested that, I mean, this is biological anthropology,
which sometimes there's evidence for it and sometimes there's conflicting evidence,
but it's sort of suggesting, like, you know, a man
and a woman would get together and then they need
to be together to raise the child. For the first
seven years, and it's like kind of getting the child

(01:07:05):
like past that first age of like being young, and
then they're sort of saying there's a biological reason behind this.
I don't. I think a lot of this stuff is overstated.
I think many couples break up in the first few years.
Many couples get way past seven years. So I would say,
like a lot of these things are just old wives
tales that somebody came up with. And it's like, at

(01:07:27):
the end of the day, like be in a relationship
because you and your partner choose to be in it,
not don't worry about the amount of time that it's
been and.

Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
If it's not taking time off. Do you keep give
back the ring after a broken engagement?

Speaker 3 (01:07:41):
Yeah, I've never had to deal with this one. I
think giving it back.

Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
What do you think I can give it back? I
think that's it's done and they bought the ring for you,
it's not happening. Do you want to keep it?

Speaker 3 (01:07:55):
I agree?

Speaker 2 (01:07:56):
And like a memory, I understand, But at the same time,
it's a memory of something that you probably don't want
to keep around. It symbolizes something that you probably don't
want to keep thinking of marriage in to monogamy, but
now partner wants to be polyamorous.

Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
Do I stay? Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:08:10):
I think that's a personal I'm not anti polyamory at all.
I feel like there's a time and a place for it,
and that for some people to really what makes them happy.
And I've been around a lot of friends who are polly.
I think the way that this question is written, it
sounds like their partner wants to do it and they
don't know if they do. So I would say, read
some of the great books, read Opening Up, read the
Ethical Slut, decide is this something that you're even interested in?

(01:08:32):
Explore it? Maybe try it on, and then say if
it doesn't work out, I want to close the relationship again.
So I would say, don't feel pressured to adopt something
that you're not comfortable with, but you could explore it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:43):
The guy I've been texting with or on a dating
up with wants to go out on the first date
with his cousins?

Speaker 1 (01:08:48):
Is he not interested? Have you ever had that where
people want to go on group dates.

Speaker 3 (01:08:51):
For the first date. Yeah, I think that's kind of weird.

Speaker 1 (01:08:54):
Yeah, I agree, weird.

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
Red Flag.

Speaker 1 (01:08:55):
I feel like we've answered the rest of these yes.
Oh my god, Mush, thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
It has been such a useful conversation and I really
hope that this has helped many people on their dating journeys.

Speaker 1 (01:09:08):
You're so well spoken. Thank you so much, You've got
so much in Thanks for having me.

Speaker 3 (01:09:12):
Thank you

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Host

Radhi Devlukia

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}How to Stop Sabotaging Your Love Life; Logan Ury on Dating Myths, Green Flags & Why You’re Still Single